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Maid Of The Loch Facebook Page Bad news for Scottish maritime preservation
We are absolutely devastated with Heritage Lottery Fund’s decision not to grant funds to the Maid of the Loch, and it’s going to take some time to absorb this news and the reasons behind it.
https://www.facebook.com/MaidtoSail/posts/1855891321124926?comment_id=1855908984456493¬if_id=1538039212906906¬if_t=feed_comment
Shameful behaviour from HLF to allow the fundraising to go this far and then hit them with this.
youngac, proud to be a member of National Steam Ship Preservation since Jun 2011.
I'm resurfacing to comment on an issue very close to my heart.
Like Andrew says, why leave such a major thing to the last moment? Rule it out early for sure - and if there are any issues, make sure they are resolved as I think they have been over time. Just ditching it like this is disgraceful
maybe a bid can be resubmitted - but on what different premises?
Was it for the sake of a few missing grand ? This could have been surely sourced as the project progressed - in loans if nothing else
A disaster.
I'm off to see some more trams tomorrow for a bit of comfort
Last edited by tramscape; 09-27-2018 at 11:17.
Time for the SG to step in and secure their already considerable investment.
If they can throw £45m at Ferguson's to employ squads of Romanians to kid on they're building two car ferries in Port Glasgow, then they can find a couple of £m for a project that will secure more Scottish jobs.
I assume that the SG's investment was a pledge. Maybe not, though ...... their grant to Fergusons was unconditional by all accounts (and subject to some controversy now it seems)
If LLSC can get in the £ 1,7 million donations and pledges, maybe they can do something along the lines of Queen Mary and get there in the end
The £ 5.5 million did seem a big amount to be needed
Interesting that public comments on the MOL FB page exhort them to do crowdfunders etc. Do they not realise that this was done a year ago and raised about £ 30 K and in total they did not get enough to buy a boiler ?
Simply appalling. LLSC had raised all the funds required of them and it was all looking pretty positive.Originally Posted by youngac
I understand there were a number of competitive bids for the available funds. I suppose the bottom line is that fewer people are buying lottery tickets compared with 10 years ago and therefore available funds are under severe pressure.
But the Maid project ticked all the HLF boxes, including the all important Education and Community. I feel desperately sorry for the LLSC who have invested so much voluntary time and effort into the project, especially John Beveridge who has devoted a large chunk of his life to the ship. Very sad.
I suspect the fact that £950,000 of taxpayers money was put into the project means that there will be immense political pressure on either the Scottish Government or an organisation such as Visit Scotland to provide the funds to allow the project to go ahead so that taxpayers money is not wasted. This would also provide a good PR stunt for the government in West Dunbartonshire (which happens to be a marginal constituency in both the Holyrood and Westminster Parliaments).
Last edited by youngac; 09-27-2018 at 14:41.
youngac, proud to be a member of National Steam Ship Preservation since Jun 2011.
Like I said, I doubt it would be wasted ..... unless the Scot. Gov was totally inept and negligent
Can't see them coming up with £ 3.5 million - and it would be wrong of us enthusiast community to think that they should
The application can surely be resubmitted - unless the pledges are not extended.
Yes, the initial response from HLF was that it lost out to a number of stronger competing applications. Let's wait for more flesh on that bone before drawing any conclusions
It does seem, though that if you are after a lot of money, you need to show a lot of benefits to society. I'm not so sure that for the amount of money needed, you get that much benefit. Sad for us enthusiasts, but other might say, rightly so. I don't think the HLF are biased against Scotland or ships, but many seem to think so. Still, we have no right to such vast amount of money even though it is there to fight for
Perhaps they are saving their money for Waverley !
Devastating nonetheless - and as for John, well, what can I say ?
Last edited by tramscape; 09-27-2018 at 16:30.
The procurement process for the boiler/s had begun - what happens to that now?
Could a scaled down restoration, perhaps without the major redevelopment at Balloch Pier, be achieved instead?
youngac, proud to be a member of National Steam Ship Preservation since Jun 2011.
I thought the heritage centre proposal for Balloch pier had already been dropped from the plan to keep costs "low"
The £ 5.5 million figure when announced - with such a large match-funding requirement threw the whole thing into jeopardy, but it was achieved
With the paucity of funds from enthusiasts, it would probably take another 20 years (if we are lucky) to get her into shape to get MCA approval - but surely there is a cheaper way ?
If the application can't be resubmitted or fails next time, who knows what will happen. many will quit the project I guess
Maybe just have her static ............... and build the heritage centre (with PSPS funds !) !! ..... but as a static exhibit she will do well to pay for herself
If she has to become as disco ..............like a dragon, "I'm Out !!"
Last edited by tramscape; 09-27-2018 at 19:06.
Clydebank’s MP Martin Docherty-Hughes has branded the rejection of a multi-million pound funding package for the Maid of the Loch restoration project as “devastating” and “baffling”. https://www.clydebankpost.co.uk/news...ing-rejection/
Devastating (for us, yes) .... baffling ? We don't have the information to make that sort of statement
No doubt, once the application is resubmitted after the educational/heritage/community aspects are improved, and the project gets the funding, there will be plenty of people baffled as to how and why and old ship gets given so much money !
She is not so old Launched 5 March 1953 Last paddle steamer built on the Clyde
That is still old
Last edited by tramscape; 10-06-2018 at 12:00.
She was the Last paddle steamer built on the Clyde she is in good condition she should have got a lottery grant maybe not the amount they was asking for just enough to get her sailing again.
She has got her own steam slipway that's a bonus.
I think the amount was just to get her sailing again - the heritage centre was removed from the project. Maybe that was one of the main reasons why it failed !
People have to understand though, that just having her sailing as a fun day out is not what the HLF requires
Just posted by LLSC :
Over the years hundreds of volunteers have helped rescue the ship from a state of dereliction and return her to the beautiful vessel we all enjoy today. Earlier this year we put out an appeal to get more volunteers to climb on board Maid of the Loch. We received an overwhelming response and filled the roles of tour guides, shop assistants and promotional staff.
My comment : I got howled down when I frst suggested volunteer involvement with Waverley if she went on the the Shieldhall model. I knew that she was an extremely popular ship and would be a magnet. The Maid seems to have been pretty successful. I suspect that Waverley would be inundated in the right circumstances. It makes me more hopeful for the future
You're right - Waverley would be inundated, there is huge goodwill out there, but when the first thing my local shopkeeper said when I casually mentioned Waverley was "oh the Waverley is very badly managed" it would have to be very different people in charge!
Of course, the paid employees of WEL would not be there. WSN trustees are of course unpaid volunteers but cannot easily be dislodged as WSN is not a membership organisation. Is their mindset fixed or flexible on this issue ? They don't appear to have an "inclusive" outlook, so may struggle to see, let alone encourage, alternatives to the status quo
Last edited by tramscape; 10-24-2018 at 16:54.
Martin Docherty-Hughes: I’ll be raising Maid concerns at meeting with lottery funders http://www.dumbartonreporter.co.uk/o...0MYK5qt8JdRusE
There have been quite a few posts by members of the public since the HLF decision decrying the HLF and being quite convinced that had the Maid been located in England, the award would have sailed through on the nod.
The politician in the above article has fallen for the line that the funding was "pulled" .... and that politicians should right the wrong and stand up for Scotland in an Britain which is designed to work for England only
Of course, the funding was never "pulled". It was never allocated in the first place. They got a first round pass (hard enough) but were beaten to the available funding at the second round, where there remains intense competition
I don't think anyone really realised this and the public were led to believe that if the match funding was raised, the grant approval would be a formality. This raised expectations to a point where failure is seen as denial (and maybe wilful denial) by the HLF
The fund, of course, allocates funds regionally pretty much based on population. Grants over £ 1 million are decided centrally but there is always a regional angle to it for fairness.
This requirement for £ 3.5 million makes it a very large potential grant. With it comes a commensurately large requirement to fulfil the HLF's funding objectives. This project might have to show that it provides over three times the benefit of a project requiring only £ 1 million in order for it to offer value for money to the fund
Many seem to think that the main benefit would be that it brings lots of tourists to the area and preserves heritage. The most important thing the HLF look for is education, interactive learning and community involvement. Relief of deprivation in an area of relatively low overall wealth, whilst a welcome outcome, is not the primary reason for the grant. Some see it as an English plot to keep Scots in relative poverty.
LLSC have put a lot of work into the educational aspects of things. I don't know how much has really been achieved, but it seems that the "strength of the bid" was less than for many others which were up for consideration. LLSC can of course re-work their bid and if they can be seen to improve on the necessary aspects, there is no reason why they can't be successful in future.
It is hard to be too educational on a cruise (and many passengers won't be interested in that side of things to any extent) and I am sure it is hard to involve the local community in any substantial way. A tough one when you need so much money ..... and when there are many others after it as well.
The raising of expectations after the first round pass was a real problem
Let's hope that this politician understands the issue and does not regard it as an English conspiracy !
LLSC have posted that they will be resubmitting, and have been encouraged by HLF to do so. They are just awaiting advice as to changes to the HLF requirements for the new round of funding
It has got to be about education - even more so than before
All you see on the MOL website under their vision is the word "enjoyment"
Education should, of course, be enjoyable - but the vision does not make the link !
Fortunately the LLSC charitable objects (which most people don't look at) prominently mention education, but not enjoyment !
Last edited by tramscape; 11-03-2018 at 11:56.
I've posted this on the Maid's facebook page - and hopefully some of the Mr and Mrs Angries from northern counties out there see it !
For those concerned about the Lottery Fund's perceived bias... September's board decisions for major applications of over £ 1 million each are now published. Of Second Round applications, 13 out of 18 applications were approved. 2 out of the 13 were in Scotland ...and Scotland got £ 4.5 million out of the £ 33.8 million awarded. That is a percentage well above Scotland's share of the UK population. The winning projects were £ 3.5 million to the RSPB for a wildlife project in Orkney and £ 0.98 million for West Dunbartonshire Council (yes!) for the Antonine Wall project
Last edited by tramscape; 11-06-2018 at 21:51.
The Maid of the Loch Funding Video
That's quite an old video now - but it is a very good one in my opinion. It deals with the benefits of the vessel being in operation rather than the normal appeal to the so-called bobble-hatters, which the Bill Paterson one seemed to be. That target population, of course, is only good for a small amount of money
However, it gives the impression that the benefits are such that investment should come from various stakeholders in the area. This has, I believe, been the case...... yet the vast majority of the money has been based on the government grant and particularly the HLF grant application
This shows that in reality, no investor is prepared to put their money where their mouth is to the required degree - because even if the ship itself breaks even, those investors in the business will not get they payback that their investment would expect or require
So ..... it is down to the lottery of the lottery again
At least we have the lottery, which means that many projects will go ahead when without it, they wouldn't. We just have to hope that the Maid becomes one of these in a subsequent funding round
Last edited by tramscape; 11-08-2018 at 13:48.
Boiler feed pumps arriving at the Maid
The new boiler feed pumps arriving yesterday - thanks Galt Transport and Summerlee Heritage Museum! Click pic for video
Interesting that the two pumps are apparently identical to the Maid's originals .......
It would indicate that they are intending to buy a boiler (presumably not identical to the original !)
It's a shame some paddle steamer friendly millionaire/s could not stump up for a new boiler and stuff the HLF.
It's really all they need to get operational - the MotL volunteers have proven they can work wonders - give them a boiler and I suspect they would be able to do the rest.
They're tying themselves in knots trying to kid on the Maid is an Educational project for the HLF when it's clearly a Heritage/Leisure/Economic regeneration/Jobs project.
I agree that it would be ideal to be able to proceed without being a charity and having to be something that it really isn't just to get HLF money
So, they appear to have around £ 1.7 m in cash and pledges and a boiler is supposedly around £ 120 k - so on the face of it, it would seem that progress can be made - BUT, the £ 5 million + price tag for the whole project suggests that this really is the price to get operational (ie rebuild to obtain an MCA certificate). It was gob-smacking when the amount was first publicised - and put the whole future fairly and squarely in the hands of the HLF. Sad but it seems that that is the way it has to be
People do say that rich Scots should pay for it ...... but why should they unless it is their own particular passion. It is a minority interest and for most people less preferable than real charitable causes. Even the Weirs are not paddle steamer enthusiasts. Their motivation was the well-being of Largs as a town and their contribution was much less than what is needed for the Maid. The loss of Waverley to Largs, I suspect, is relatively much more significant than the potential gain to Loch Lomond from the Maid
We have to avoid it being seen as an enthusiast's vanity project for which someone else will (hopefully) pay. If there really was an untapped demand and a real business proposition, would Sweeney's not have satisfied it already ?
I really wonder how we can justify such a vast amount of money for the degree of education which the project will offer - but that is what will need to be done
Last edited by tramscape; 11-18-2018 at 01:24.
Maid of the Loch receives £1million funding boost http://www.dumbartonreporter.co.uk/n...76QdUk6SmkLDkU
This of course is only the original grant being reconfirmed, but it is good to know that it is outright cash rather than a pledge
The Dumbarton Reporter article on the link provided is interesting to the extent that now we know that substantial work will take place on the vessel after all - and although she might not be sailing, she will be a much better visitor attraction
Most importantly she will be well lined up for what one would hope is the next phase - with HLF support. If the amount of work needed for that phase can be reduced somehow, then the pressure on HLF funds will be less ....... but it would seem that the £ 3.7 million is still required to complete the plan (and maybe even more as these things tend to mushroom in price)
It still makes you wonder just why it is as high as an extra £ 3.7 million .................. but that seems to be the price of maritime restoration !
Interestingly, people are going wild on facebook - they probably think that this is new money from the Scottish Government, rather than a previously awarded grant ! Nice Scottish Governement, nasty English HLF !
PS : LLSC have surely got it right, making sure that there is an "education facility" aboard
I would suggest that we really need one on Waverley - perhaps in place of the lower bar ? If the Doctor's plan is ever followed, I would expect there to be substantially more free space aboard the vessel for the necessary "education facility/facilities" !
Last edited by tramscape; 12-06-2018 at 18:10.
Well I suppose having kid-on "educational facilities" is part of the silly game that has to be played, however I don't remember seeing many "educational facilities" on any of the Swiss steamers I've enjoyed sailing on!
No, it's an interesting one. If we want the money we have to play the game .... and to be fair, rightly so
The Swiss one is an interesting debate but they are in reality commercial operations although in the case of some lakes, the ships have been designated as "cultural monuments". This is a bit like someone "listing" a building here - and it can be a bit of a liability for the house owner.
Fortunately, in Switzerland, there seems a consensus backed up by the fact that the ships are fulfilling a commercial role as well as being "preserved". Many of the operating companies have a "tourist development" object in their Mission Statement as well as having varying degrees of local authority involvement (shares, grants etc). It all seems part and parcel - but in reality the enthusiasts are asked to pay substantially towards paddle steamer renovation as the quid pro quo for the operators having to renovate rather than replace
It does seem that culture/heritage protection does not appear to have to come with the classroom-type education which we appear to be demanding here - but in our case, the state or its arms-length representatives are being asked to cough up the whole amount (or near enough), so they really do need something substantial in return, when the project would not proceed commercially
Last edited by tramscape; 12-07-2018 at 00:49.
If the Swiss - or anyone else - can wash their faces commercially that's just great.
However if we need to appeal for funds beyond our immediate community (which may be interest or geographical) then we are in competition with other good (and not so good) causes ....... and any minority interest group like ship preservation is in danger of being considered a group of old fogeys indulging in their own particular hobby - which is fine as long as we don't expect anyone else to pay for it. We don't see it that way ..... but I guess we rue the fact that we are having difficulty in getting the next generation interested in our projects.
Educational activities are both a demonstration that we are doing some good in the wider community - and thus deserving of support from that wider community. However I've had the privilege the last few months of helping welcome groups of youngsters (school/cubs/scouts etc) on a National Historic Ships vessel - and seeing them get totally absorbed in what for them is a new world. I actually find that pretty rewarding right now - but if we can get kids interested in ships for the long term it seems to me to have win/win potential. For me it isn't a silly game we have to play any more - maybe I'm a late convert though!
Good luck to the Maid.
Sorry if I sound a bit cynical, however if I was personally involved I absolutely would play the game!
Yes Sealegs groups of kids having a fun couple of hours sail and perhaps coming away having learned something of the past - ideal, it's a shame WEL have never seriously attempted this.
The "facilities" required - a couple of committed individuals in the organisation who aren't frightened to get up in front of the kids and explain in a lively but not condescending way how the ship is operated and how it fitted in to the culture and society of it's time.
I've done that sort of thing in the past - it's fun and rewarding - I'll volunteer!
I'm a bit cynical and I can see the concern when it comes to the amount of money being asked of the funding bodies
Do you really get educational value for money ?
Yes, a steamer trip should inspire the kids - and when they get a bit older and have to decide what interests to concentrate on, this becomes one of them. That's how it was with me - inspired by loads of things, but only a few can really be carried on as hobbies into adulthood. It didn't inspire me to go to sea though !
That's why I like the idea of a heritage centre, so you can come and go as you please and learn at your own pace - from displays and interactive learning, through to having a reading room - then get a shortish trip. Yes, have something similar on the lower decks of Waverley. Many will argue that the excellent displays on the main deck are more than adequate, skimmed by some passengers at best and far too detailed for most... For sure during each cruise there should be a tannoy announcement for those interested to congregate at the engine room gallery for an inspiring talk by an enthusiastic volunteer (or employee as it currently stands)
Our PSPS meetings take place at the National Railway Museum where you look out of the meeting room over one of the main halls and see all the famililies getting inspired - and next to the meeting room through plate glass you can see the reading room with hundreds of railway books and some real boffins deep into their reading and researching. Then there are some halls with stacked artefacts which most people would probably just glance at a sample of - but others really take time to look at. Something for everybody
I still have that nagging feeling though, that there is very little really to learn (unless you are a real boffin) and it is hard to justify getting so much money. However, something does need to be done to show that you are genuinely trying. I really don't know the answer
Last edited by tramscape; 12-07-2018 at 15:38.
Even the BBC are in on it !
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...Yi5dpQG0wQlME8
Scottish Government nice - HLF nasty
Edit : I see that a couple of "waste of money" comments have appeared on the LLSC FB page.
Last edited by tramscape; 12-07-2018 at 18:07.
A couple of years ago, my wife and I were sailing aboard the Lake Lucerne paddler, Stadt Luzern. On the return trip back to Lucerne, I was amazed to see her Captain, a good friend, Kuno Stein, standing by the engine room, microphone in hand, giving an excellent commentary on the engine, how it worked etc.
There must have been at least 50 or 60 listening intently.........and they were not enthusiasts! Only problem was.......it was all in German!
Wouldn’t it just be marvellous to replicate this on the Clyde? Real education.......from the horse’s, sorry Captain’s mouth!
Das ist kein Problem fuer mich !
Last edited by tramscape; 12-07-2018 at 21:00.
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