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tramscape
06-26-2012, 23:23
OK. It is clear there is no mechanism to remove the existing directors/management (well, there is now, but it is sewn up and won't happen)

If people are convinced that the existing management are going to drive WSN finances into the ground, the ship effectively becomes a liability - worthless.

Has the time now come to establish a new organisation (easily done), possibly charitable (easy too) with appropriate objects, build up a shadow organisation (plenty of suitably skilled supporters exist), portfolio of pledges etc (for working capital) and when the time comes, buy the paddle steamer Waverley from the effectively insolvent company (WSN) for a nominal sum

The ship can then be run by, and flourish under, a dedicated but open management (and trustees if appropriate) drawing on the best commercial practice worldwide (naval and general).

PS This is exactly what we had hoped to do with Queen Mary, but it can be done with Waverley without the £8-9 million needed for start-up on the other project. It should be a self-sustaining venture

Discuss............ No - discuss AND progress the plan.

tramscape
06-26-2012, 23:54
Care to let us in, No6 ?

PMs if necessary !

Waverleyfan3
06-26-2012, 23:58
So how does one remove the existing directors/management if it is sewn up and won't happen, who appoints the directors anyway, what credentials are they required to have, what powers does the new "development" board have over the directors and what exactly is its mandate other than to attempt to flog what I'm afraid is increasingly becoming a dead horse with tired time-tables, brochures which are largely gobbledegook, customer relations that are dead in the water, and a web site that has as much sparkle as a damp squib.

tramscape
06-27-2012, 00:03
No6 has explained this to me in detail and I just about understand - but I can quite see how most PSPS members won't understand the mechanisms. Also, of course, it is no business of anyone PSPS members included (except to see the constitution), but maybe FOWs will eventually have something to say about that

Like any charity (or company limited by guarantee), its members can decide who else becomes members/trustees. So, most such organisations become totally self-serving and not answerable to anyone (although bound by their "objects"), unless you have "open membership" rules in your constitution. PSPS has. WSN has not !

Anyone can set up a charity - and it only needs one member - you ! So, you are then in charge - and can basically do what you like. You need some directors / secretary / treasurer - but they need not be made members !

Waverleyfan3
06-27-2012, 00:25
I don't want to set up a charity thanks...there is nothing new really ...if one is not part of the Waverley inner sanctum one will be used in all sorts of ways if one allows it but there will be no revolution. A bit like No 6's bus trip from Menai

tramscape
06-27-2012, 00:32
It seems that revolution from within is out of the question - hence an alternative approach

There's no problem setting up a shadow group, even a dormant company, with the intention to buy Waverley. The main benefits of charitable status are that it levers in Gift Aid and possibly donations (the latter because people are more likely to be confident that you are bound by and acting in pusuit of the objects of the charity).

The existing owners may not wish to sell, but if they are insolvent they will have to. And who to ? "Us" or the breakers !

Say "Yes" to NEWCO !

Waverleyfan3
06-27-2012, 01:23
Well if its anything like the new Glasgow Rangers NEWCO the problem is exactly what players will be deserting the sinking ship.

tramscape
06-27-2012, 10:37
This Newco would still be in the Premier League, with a high quality squad of players already signed up, but would of course consider applications from the best players still at Oldco.

tramscape
06-27-2012, 10:43
WF3 - the Development Board is appointed by the WSN board to deliver the Development strategy - ie to "spearhead fundraising".

It is about development of Waverley's profile and wider understanding/acceptance to underpin fundraising campaigns (whether obtaining grant, sponsorship .... or donations)

Nothing to do with commercial strategy of the company's operations as such - and certainly no powers over the members of the board

One fund raising method (in fact the first mentioned) which passed me by when I first read it was "membership". Now we know

Waverleyfan3
06-27-2012, 12:33
Jings.. how can a development board further Waverley's profile if it is being tarnished by those responsible for the commercial strategy which is clearly wanting in many respects.

tramscape
06-27-2012, 12:37
Indeed

tramscape
06-30-2012, 18:12
My comments were on the other thread

Maybe they can be condensed to : Decision time : Unambiguous ownership of W&B (and KC) with the requisite control, scrutiny etc - or social club and guardians of historical artefacts only (with preservationists encouraged to become FOWs, Friends of MoL etc to support the ship(s) of their choice)

If the latter, sell shares in WSN and buy Wingfield Castle off Hartlepool council and turn it into a proper paddle steamer museum / research facility (I know it is in the wrong place, but at least it is in A place)

pyrate
07-01-2012, 13:05
The PSPS AGM call has been issued.

This is the rank and file members chance to make their voice heard - any thoughts??

Yes. Go along to the AGM, and voice your concerns there. Chatting about it here seems to be having little effect?

tramscape
07-03-2012, 13:56
It does seem that AGM only accepts formal agenda items and a comprehensive document was presented last year - which has not been fully responded to

Those in senior positions are clearly aware of rank-and-file concerns (through this and general chat)

It seems that their fundamental position is that the Society should allow those who run WSN (and who know best how to do so) to do so without distraction or criticism (which can be regarded as hurtful by some).

WSN will no doubt take on board suggestions where it suits and fits easily with existing ways (so long as they are presented formally by the Society through the appropriate channels), but they are sticking resolutely to their fundamental strategy, or so it seems. Self-preservation is fundamental to the human condition

To be fair, if I were running "my" business, i would not take kindly to interference from busy-bodies !

Waverleyfan3
07-03-2012, 15:40
If you were running your business and it was losing custom and income at a great rate of knots you just might take some suggestions from your remaining "interfering" customers on board..the alternative is to carry on regardless until it finally goes down the tubes.

tramscape
07-03-2012, 16:11
Indeed, WF3.

An attribute of good management is to know when you need help, seek it .................... etc etc

WSN will say they have done so (and don't need uninformed fantasies from armchair planners), but it could be that they have given the brought-in "experts" the wrong remit - and the PR people they appoint are just that

So long as you are in the heritage - charity - public grants - private donations - "we're trying to beat the odds" - mentality and the weather card can be played ...............I guess many in PSPS share this mentality (and of course there is crossover at PSPS/WSN/WEL board level)

It's not a public service we are trying to run and it won't survive as a "members club"

For those not familiar with the general figures we are talking about, they are on this link

https://www.oscr.org.uk/search-charity-register/charity-extract/?charitynumber=sc005832

tramscape
07-06-2012, 10:50
Yes, it just seems strange to me that if you are to bring in high-profile experts, you get them to look at the business model, the financials and the customer service rather than reinforce a set-in-stone concept by looking for more "subsidy" and placing the ship even further into the "we're trying our best against all odds category"

Trying to have the ship survive for the sake of it as it is deemed to be "worthwhile" rather than because it provides a successful leisure activity.

Help ? For sure, to tide over a period of reevaluation. . Continued public subsidy ? I'm not so sure

Marisco
08-01-2012, 05:25
OK. It is clear there is no mechanism to remove the existing directors/management (well, there is now, but it is sewn up and won't happen) .


Would you care to elaborate?
You have, seemingly, gone into this in some detail, and I would like to know more.
Is a pm more appropriate ?

To quote Zig Ziglar "to be a winner, you must plan to win, prepare to win, and expect to win".

tramscape
08-01-2012, 10:20
Will pm you Marisco

Clyde Paddler
08-08-2012, 10:48
Could Waverley - hypothetically - be purchased, given the large mortgage held over her by the Lottery commission?

tramscape
08-08-2012, 12:09
I don't know, but a mortgage on an asset which is worth nothing - is worth nothing (or at least what the highest bidder might be prepared to pay ...... which could be next to nothing) !

I should think the LC would try and get her in the hands of someone who would operate her rather than the scrapman

zetland97
08-08-2012, 12:48
I don't understand the ref to Heritage Lottery having a 'mortgage' over the vessel .... as far as I am aware, HLF may give grants that are predicated on certain outcomes being achieved (to show that their objectives will be met) and there is a condition that may require full or part repayment if the outcomes are not fully met .... but that is not quite the same as having a mortgage, which would imply the right to re-possess the vessel. I think HLF would simply be a creditor which could not recover its money, except to the extent that any creditors may get a % from the realisation of any assets. Also, if WEL went bust and the vessel is owned by WSN then it may be protected against creditors .... that depends on maritime law and the nature of the agreements between WSN/WEL which I am not familiar with.

tramscape
08-08-2012, 14:33
Yes, Zetland, it would be good to know the exact situation, but this "mortgage" has been referred to in communications from PSPS to its members. The split of PSPS/WSN/WEL was in effect to protect one part of the organisation from failure in another, I believe, so it is likely that PSPS and WSN have protection from any creditors of WEL. However, as they are effectively one organisation, who would give them credit in future ? If WEL can't run W&B as a going concern, WSN and PSPS presumably couldn't either - and either might struggle to pay for W in a static role. WSN funds have by all accounts disappeared as a result of losses at WEL

I understand that PSPS now claim to have one or more "mortgages" over Waverley (whatever that means).

tramscape
09-17-2012, 21:00
Time to revive this thread, I think .............. seriously

Waverleyfan3
09-17-2012, 21:27
What has the PSPS got to say then... their branch websites are generally totally out of date and completely bypass any controversial issues. It starts with WEL downwards or the PSPS upwards.. take your pick.

tramscape
09-23-2012, 23:44
No need to revive this thread after all .....

Posted yesterday as part of a news item on ship-tracking.co.uk ........

"After last year's issues, future funding for the Waverley looks a bit more optimistic. Unofficial indications are is that it is ok for a few years".

The heat is off. Let's all stop worrying ourselves !

Is this information "leaked" from an official source ???

Not that a change of management wouldn't freshen things up - but it seems that there will be no need for new owners to step in. Wallet now being closed

Waverleyfan3
09-24-2012, 00:44
I like unofficial sources. They tell us what official sources don't and are a source of continued speculation. Maybe Balmoral's season didn't spring a leak after all and those who are suggesting that it did are a tedious source of rumour and should officially belt up or be despatched to Red Bay or the Isle of Man for recuperation. I'm certainly not going to take my wallet back to Garlieston though two nights free b&b at Douglas as happened on one of Waverley's first expeditions has its attractions.

tramscape
09-24-2012, 10:26
The financial security definitely won't be as a result of the farebox - unless central overheads have been slashed considerably this year which seems unlikely

stanley37uk
09-24-2012, 14:32
Secured creditors are paid before unsecured creditors and then shareholders if anything is let over . So HLF having a charge over the vessel would be repaid earlier if funds were avasilable .

tramscape
09-24-2012, 14:46
A sensible condition laid down by HLF. At the time she might have had a good resale value because the approved business plan presumably demonstrated her profitability

It would be interesting (essential actually) to know whether, if the ship was sold to a group of private investors, the floating charge would lapse or transfer

HLF would presumably have to agree the sale and the sale price - and the fate of the floating charge. Would it disappear in case of the liquidation of WSN (?)
.
Either way, the ship is now only worth scrap realisation price to HLF and effectively nothing to PSPS. To WSN it is effectively a liability unless she can be operated sustainably once Balmoral is disposed of

tramscape
09-24-2012, 22:54
It is surprising that HLF have not (if they indeed have not) got more involved in the strategy and direction of WSN in order to protect their investment and ensure that the asset continues to do what they paid for it to do

Old_Seadog
02-18-2013, 00:08
WSN directors
Dr Nicolas John James PSPS National council member with PSPS for many years
Mr David William Kells The guy from Rangers
Mr Gordon Reid Chief Engineer & Marine Superintendent
Mr Iain MacLeod Member of Scottish branch PSPS committee
Mr Ian Ramsay
Mr Murray Paterson Former Sealink/Stena captain relief captain/mate on Waverley, Scottish Branch PSPS committee member 30+ years involvment
Mr Paul Semple PSPS Scottish branch committee member
Mr Peter Morris Reid Waverley's accountant, Scottish Branch Committee member for many, many years it was he who probably wrote the cheque for Waverley in 1974. 40 years involvement
Ms Myra Allen PSPS National council member involved for over 30 years

Looking at the list of people involved in WEL and WSN in particular I see a lot of PSPS council members and people who have been with the ship for many years, I personally have been on winter work parties aboard Waverley with both Murray Paterson and Peter Reid over 25 years ago and they are still there, these are not faceless bureaucrats but people who are deeply committed to the ship. A "mutiny" is not the way to go, instead it would be better to ask to join the board of directors in an unpaid advisory capacity. What they really need is a marketing expert who is au-fait with all current technologies.

Waverleyfan3
02-18-2013, 00:32
WSN directors
Dr Nicolas John James PSPS National council member with PSPS for many years
Mr David William Kells The guy from Rangers
Mr Gordon Reid Chief Engineer & Marine Superintendent
Mr Iain MacLeod Member of Scottish branch PSPS committee former Waverley relief mate
Mr Ian Ramsay
Mr Murray Paterson Former Sealink/Stena captain relief captain/mate on Waverley, Scottish Branch PSPS committee member 30+ years involvment
Mr Paul Semple PSPS Scottish branch committee member
Mr Peter Morris Reid Waverley's accountant, Scottish Branch Committee member for many, many years it was he who probably wrote the cheque for Waverley in 1974. 40 years involvement
Ms Myra Allen PSPS National council member involved for over 30 years

Looking at the list of people involved in WEL and WSN in particular I see a lot of PSPS council members and people who have been with the ship for many years, I personally have been on winter work parties aboard Waverley with both Murray Paterson and Peter Reid over 25 years ago and they are still there, these are not faceless bureaucrats but people who are deeply committed to the ship. A "mutiny" is not the way to go, instead it would be better to ask to join the board of directors in an unpaid advisory capacity. What they really need is a marketing expert who is au-fait with all current technologies.

Yes but where is the chief executive or for that matter the senior Master?? I thought that joining the board of directors of any company might be by invitation rather than request. If they don't have anyone au fait with marketing or capable of looking after a web site then they are immediately in difficulty. it does not require an "expert"... just someone who is competent. On a technical note you are offside.. I believe Mr Kells is the guy from Celtic!!!

tramscape
02-18-2013, 00:42
Invite Craig Whyte on to the board

Old_Seadog
02-18-2013, 00:55
Invite Craig Whyte on to the board He's definitely available... but maybe not for long.

They may indeed have a marketing person I'm not familiar with everyone on the WEL board but at least it looks like they are biting the bullet an going to tackle the website which is one of their main problems. As a web designer myself I suspect they had the existing site built without realising it might be difficult for a mere office mortal to easily update. Hopefully they have learned that lesson and insisted on a content management based site where updates can be routinely uploaded easily as plain text documents. I think it would be prudent for then to ask their web development company to design apps for both the Apple and Android platforms in parallel to the main site. Even if their only purpose is to inform passengers/users of sailing status whilst on the move. CalMac already have this to check on the disposition of the vessels in their fleet and it works well. Of course all these things depend on an office worker quickly updating them at HQ if that's not done then all is for naught.

somewhatfoolish
02-18-2013, 01:11
I'm sure they're all committed to the ship, but that does not alter the fact they give the impression of being complacent; as far as the public are concerned everything's fine and rosy in the garden. Except it isn't, the whole operation is living on borrowed time and a gigantic hand-out from the Weirs, or at least that's the way it seems as the information black-out means guessing and assumptions are the order of the day. The dismal weather, bizarre high-risk scheduling and frankly appalling handling of the Olympics and Jubilee don't seem likely to have the coffers bulging, and if they were surely it would be being shouted from the roof tops. Instead there is more deathly silence, and more assumption.

If nothing else it's a textbook PR failure. I'd love for them to release a statement telling us that I'm completely wrong, the organisation is going from strength to strength, the scheduling choices were and are all based on a rock-solid analysis of prior passenger figures, here's how it was worked out from the raw numbers and the bottom line is big and black, but I'm not holding my breath.

tramscape
02-18-2013, 10:14
#43 Exactly

My biggest concern has been how business for Balmoral has been "planned" on the basis that without a strong Balmoral, Waverley's position as she is currently planned, is, let's say, precarious (we have to assume !!)

Marisco
02-18-2013, 18:35
Invite Craig Whyte on to the board

Is this the Craig Whyte that you are recommending?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/ex-rangers-owner-craig-whyte-denial-1715820

:confused:

Old_Seadog
02-18-2013, 18:47
I think that was probably a joke... although according to some even he might be an improvement!

tramscape
02-18-2013, 20:12
I was involved in a fair bit of football related banter on this board when the CW issue came to the fore - so it is a bit of a private joke - sorry !

However, i could not resist, when OS wrongly had D Kells down as the man from Rangers

It would fit quite neatly with the tenor of this thread, though !

Dare I say that someone amongst us will be the new Charles Green ?

Green in charge of the light blues ? Anything is possible these days !

Waverleyfan3
02-18-2013, 20:44
I was involved in a fair bit of football related banter on this board when the CW issue came to the fore - so it is a bit of a private joke - sorry !

However, i could not resist, when OS wrongly had D Kells down as the man from Rangers

It would fit quite neatly with the tenor of this thread, though !

Dare I say that someone amongst us will be the new Charles Green ?

Green in charge of the light blues ? Anything is possible these days !

Waverley survived Green Seas from Garlieston to the Isle of Man so, as you say, anything is possible.

Old_Seadog
02-18-2013, 20:49
Waverley survived Green Seas from Garlieston to the Isle of Man so, as you say, anything is possible.

It wasn't just the seas that were green on that trip, even the crew got rather green at the gills, but worst of all was the poor old fella who watched his top set of teeth fly from of his mouth and shatter irreparably on the paddle shaft casing but even he saw the funny side of it, thank goodness.

tramscape
02-18-2013, 21:04
Clearly not a pleasure cruise............... the case for the prosecution strengthens ................

Old_Seadog
02-18-2013, 21:18
Too late, there was already a court case and captain & ship were vindicated and that all happened a long time ago in a galaxy far away.....

tramscape
02-18-2013, 21:25
New evidence, m'lud !

Waverleyfan3
02-18-2013, 21:37
Too late, there was already a court case and captain & ship were vindicated and that all happened a long time ago in a galaxy far away.....

I was there (at the court case that is). The Captain certainly got off but the prosecution mucked it up big style and the charge as framed was not seen to be competent. As for Rangers it's very much a case of Whyte Funnel lines giving way to Green Seas and the jury is out.

Old_Seadog
02-18-2013, 22:46
Probably, the Isle of Man jaunts (which are great fun) are indeed too risky, not so much in terms of the ship's seaworthiness but economically, the trouble of course being if the weather turns nasty it's very difficult to offer any alternative sailings due to the geography, and crucial revenue is lost. Gotta give this one to the prosecution/Tramscape.